not quiet following what you are getting at with this post.From the cartoon I get the impression of another dead german idea or era... not a comparison to nazis or the suggestion of a return to the old ... so who is stereotyping who?what did you get from it? "guest workers" ... who were supposed to leave ... but haven't (50 yrs later) I would say there could be offense taken in that statement ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turks_in_Germanythough later they did offer them either citizenship or a means to return home ... both were taken advantage of.Where does the idea of introducing multiculturalism come from anyway? I know its what they call it in Canada, but that was part of its foundation.Honestly at the same time I don't understand European mindset at all, it does comes off as kind of fascist, but then again that is it's foundation, and I'm going way back before WWII. Im gonna add this link ...http://zompist.com/fascism.html it includes Islamic extremists as true fascists as well.
She's in the cemetery burying multiculturalism, whilst a hand of the dead is emerging from the tome of the grave of the far-right.Offence could be taken? So fucking what? People who make an effort to actually speak the language of the country around them and not live in divisive ghettoes hostile to the rest of the country have nothing at all to worry about - quite the contrary."Where does the idea of introducing multiculturalism come from anyway?"The idea that you could what the fuck you want because you have a different "culture". Like misogyny, death threats to apostates, anti-Semitism, hostility to the host culture, refusal to integrate or communicate with "the others".European mindset at all, it does comes off as kind of fascist, but then again that is it's foundation, and I'm going way back before WWII.Britain has had the least to do with the fascists.Europeans have historically been extremely powerful civilisations, look at the Romans, look how we founded your country. There's certainly some nostalgia for that kind of imperial power. But that power long in the past now.I think you see horrible tinges to the Europeans' attitudes when defending their culture, yet when Americans do it they're fighting the good fight.America has made horrendous anti-human mistakes, apartheid up until '67, Napalming civilians in Vietnam etc "Le he who is without sin cast the first stone..."
lolI didnt see the hand.. just looked like a root.I'm not gonna argue with you about immigration and the problems with "multiculturalism"I have my own gripes on the subject.I just cant imagine being the grandchild of a "guest worker" who came to a country 50 yrs ago ... and now being told I was supposed to leave, but didnt!I do think they should learn the language! even though my own grandmother never learned to speak english. You act like they chose to live in ghettos! this is multiculturalism remember - they never were part of germany .. and now they are stuck inside that box and you want to put all the blame on them?you are talking fascist as a political movement - I'm talking mindset.I am shocked by the European tourists I meet who label so many things "American" that actually comes from a country 2 borders over from their own!I have no nostalgia for imperial power. ... and what a blatant show of self proclaimed superiority that statement is.Learn your pre-European history please. The world did exist before your empire you know.I am first generation raised by Europeans. I am a citizen of the world. your piss take on "american" means nothing to me. If I would defend anything it is that melting pot of humanity I grew up in.Your founding of this country was by kicking out everyone who was different lol or the constant wars and killing of one another ..
I just cant imagine being the grandchild of a "guest worker" who came to a country 50 yrs ago ... and now being told I was supposed to leave, but didnt!Why would you be told to leave? Let's stop beating around the bush.The Italian immigrants were of the same cut as the rest, Catholic, or at any rate European and Christian. Merkel was referring to the horrendous lack of integration and endemic hostility to German culture within the Muslim community. She was certainly not referring the people who have the same values of freedom of speech, equality, democracy and decency but speak a different language at home.
from her mouth ...."She added: "We kidded ourselves a while, we said: 'They won't stay, sometime they will be gone', but this isn't reality."she does also say they are welcome in Germany ..Its been 50 years ... could it b then that a multicultural approach actually breeds contempt? if you can say ... Merkel was referring to the horrendous lack of integration and endemic hostility to German culture WITHIN THE MUSLIM COMMUNITY"are you assuming all the Germans are have been standing outside the ghettos all these years with open arms?
The Europeans have failed due to liberal guilt - it being utterly racist to fly one's flag and be patriotic in any shape or form or proud of ones country. We have created no tangible identity to aspire to, no "European Dream", we've said do what you like, you're brown, who are we to judge! Please forgive us! We've shown a tremendous lack of confidence in our own value system and culture - and surprise some immigrants have bought that line and ran with it.
The German people, as a nation, have been very tolerant indeed. As have nearly all European nations. But there comes a point, when children at inner city schools are bullied for being German, when you have to say stop, this is not right.
don't try to pull the sympathy card with me ...I don't feel bad for anyone.on both sides there have, is, and has always will be those who make it and those who don't.Blaming any part of it on another only adds to the problem.There are millions of proud respectable successful Europeans.Just as - as you have said - She was certainly not referring the people who have the same values of freedom of speech, equality, democracy and decency but speak a different language at home. no tangible identity to aspire to?Why is it we? I know other Europeans including English ones who would not say that at all.why dont you aspire to be a citizen of the world?
Sorry you're not making sense.I'm explaining the problem and why I believe it has occurred and you're not acknowledging that. My opinions on identity are rather irrelevant.
You feel offended by Merkel because expressed that the idea that communities should unite under the value system of the host country rather than run parallel communities than run somewhat contrary and alienated to the rest?
do we live in Germany? or are we talking about England now?I don't live in either country. all I have to go by is your press, other things I have to read, and an assortment of people with various and often contradicting opinions.I look at France in its attempt to stay "french" ...of course there is nothing to aspire to when there is no growth. Its like Europe will turn into a Disneyland attraction. but who wants to visit rome when its just like NYC? think about it. I just have to ask sometimes in what way does protecting your culture include things like food dress and architecture? its one thing to stand for freedoms but ... what about those who want a diverse culture?I live in new york the melting pot of the world. I don't see this problem here with muslims. but we have more immigrants from more places. the same inner city bully would be spanish (not from spain)and whose fault is that?but on what you have said ... there is a separation between gov and society. I follow along the lines of most problems being societal which governments will never fix. I just don't think fighting is the answer. not the traditional battle plan anyway. Muslims are not the only ones in europe.. they may the loudest but I see in your papers stories about others like Roma jews and poles experiencing racism so to say we have all been nice to everyone and they are mean is not really true is it?
no, I'm not offended by her at all..I am neither German nor a Turkish guest worker lol.I said I could see how it could be offensive. I live in a city full of extremely parallel communities than run somewhat contrary and alienated to the rest - while still unite under the value system of the host city.I'm all about community!after you pointed out the hand (thank you) and read up a bit .. I understand the cartoon better.This like much of what seems to be going on now is all political soap opera for votes from the mindless masses. Her stance has changed according to ratings polls, and a reflection of growing right wing support.(I still like my initial interpretation better though :P )I much prefer president Wulffs speech .. where he admits no leaders were not present to assist and organize these immigrants. But maybe that's what you meant by " come and do what you like "
So you criticise Europe from the sidelines; any play for pride becomes "fascistic", any attempt to speak of divided communities is to pander to right wing support. Hmm. Perhaps the borders should be relinquished, and uncontrolled immigration be encouraged from Muslim countries. Perhaps a more Islamic Europe is something you wish for. To pay for our sins.By a happy coincidence, America has very little to fear from Muslim immigration, there is comparatively very little of it, and the ones that do integrate very well.
im nor criticizing, its just an observation from the outside.I admire europe, that's where my nostalgia lies. No I do not want to see it over taken by anyone.I think you are misinterpreting my use of the word fascist. If you had read that link I added in my first comment you would see it talks about Islam and fascism. I want them to intergrate. I want them to speak what ever language is native to the country in which they live.I think the people who dont like it there should leave. I think they should raise their children to be european, and secular.I just dont think you can put all the blame on them. it should be a joint effort. I think comunication should open up and the debate end.
immigrants coming to a new country provide a dialectic. They integrate, while the whole of society learns to adopt some characteristics of the immigrants as cuisine.
Renegade, that's a wonderful idea - however in Britain it seems there has been a failure of integration and a constructive social identity in some quarters which has fomented isolationism, alienation and radicalism. We do have a wide range of curries, however :)
Political Islamists are a minority of immigrants.The German situation is more related to the world capitalist crisis. Despite the rhetoric, the cheap labor is needed.
No the problem has been growing in European cities for years, and it's the hostility from Muslim ghettoes to the rest of society, a majority of mosques in this county have links to extremism.The Times claims almost half belong to the hardline Deobandi sect alone.Please don't forget 40% of British Muslims claimed they would prefer Sharia law to UK law when asked.These problems have arison before the "capitalist crisis" Renegade, which in any event has peaked and we are in the stages of recovery.Yes cheap labour is needed, yes the hardcore Islamists are a small minority.However one needs to be vigilant of what is accepted mainstream discourse.I.e. 0% of British Muslims found homosexuality morally acceptable, when 501 where asked by The Guardian.The issue in Germany has arisen on the one side through an increasingly religious and hostile section of the largely decent and hard working Turkish minority.Yes, there are other factors at play, and racism and discrimination that Turks receive.However that is pretty strongly policed and dealt with effectively by the legal system and the authorities - which seems to not be the case the other way around.This needs to be acknowledged.Unless you want some kind of civil war with the far-right being empowered by the perception of darker skinned people being permitted to be openly hostile and incite hatred towards others.The "capitalist crisis" is not the issue at hand comrade :)
An example very close to home;Islamists OPENLY call for the deaths of members of the Ahmadiyya sect, the Mosque in the photo is a few minutes drive from my house. The police have of course been made aware, but these people still openly distribute this material in the high street.The authorities have the mistaken idea that they need to tread on eggshells; or worse to let the ethnic minority communities sort it out themselves. Of course it it were racist whites calling for the deaths of others they'd be a in chucked hard in to a police cell quicker than you can say double-standards.
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